tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post2503604158224553378..comments2023-11-28T15:20:59.369-05:00Comments on Cinema Viewfinder: Lola Montès (1955): Is It Really "the Greatest Film of All Time?"Tony Dayoubhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-9313637319768027622010-02-15T09:59:39.445-05:002010-02-15T09:59:39.445-05:00Thanks very much for the site reference/recommenda...Thanks very much for the site reference/recommendation Tony! And yes, I'm afraid to admit I wear humanism on my sleeve. Ha! At the end of the day it's always the film that move me that I regard as the most important.Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-83932698566887497832010-02-14T17:28:21.081-05:002010-02-14T17:28:21.081-05:00J.D., I enjoyed your review as well. Thanks for co...J.D., I enjoyed your review as well. Thanks for commenting here.<br /><br />Sam, not that I didn't know this already, but your two lists seem to betray a deep humanistic streak. It also puts me to shame, since I've only seen 7 of these. Thanks for what turns out to be a great "recommendation" list.<br /><br />Vuk, get yourself over to Sam's great <a href="http://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/the-overriding-importance-and-value-of-professional-film-criticism/" rel="nofollow">site</a> for a heated debate along the lines of what you discuss in your comments, prompted by Sam's ruminations on whether more credibility should be given to professional critics rather than film bloggers.<br /><br />PS: Apparently, Sarris later recanted his classification of LOLA MONTES as "the greatest film of all time" in favor of THE EARRINGS OF MADAME DE.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-16421226951777837272010-02-14T11:16:17.987-05:002010-02-14T11:16:17.987-05:00Sam Juliano:
I have not seen THE EARRINGS OF MADA...Sam Juliano:<br /><br />I have not seen THE EARRINGS OF MADAME DE but if you speak so highly of it I should really check it out. I haven't seen nearly enough of of Ophuls' work.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08164105442273577128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-88531242369393087922010-02-13T20:47:17.182-05:002010-02-13T20:47:17.182-05:00I hardly ever comment on blogs, mostly due to time...I hardly ever comment on blogs, mostly due to time constraints, but i just had to chip in here.<br /><br />I studied Cinema Studies at NYU, and was always grappling with the problem of explaining the differentiation between best and favorite. i was very often strongly called out in class after declaring that a film that was universally believed to be brilliant, i didn't find as moving. And each and very time i was trying to show how I categorized, in much the same way as you did in your post, good and favorite films. <br /><br />never got far with that definition. and while i always tried to employ everything i could have learned from classes in film theory and history, and did that to the teachers liking, i had no luck with getting to the students. the problem i found in a couple of conversations was a very strong sense of personal insecurity. it seems as if speaking against an established "best" film was blasphemous in some way, but no one could precisely pinpoint what i was saying that was so wrong. <br /><br />so for my own sake, i made a parallel for easier understanding. The films students i was sorrounded with (and you can easily replace the students with any other person that accuses you of "art blasphemy", as they accused me), i equated to the current state of large US based daily newspapers (like for instance the NYT). An obsession of being as factual and as objective as possible, has lead the Times to what it is today - a very boring newspaper. And while it may present valid, interesting and even brilliant points (like my fellow students), the fear of being wrong is always present. <br /><br />I love that Faber was mentioned in the comments, as he is one of the very few world renowned writers on film that is passionate, as well as objective in his viewings. He may praise a good film, but what good is it, if doesn't sit well with an individual. <br /><br />I apologize for the length of the comment, and i am sorry if it is unclear in some bits, but it has been a long day. But to summarize, what i am trying to say is, and bear with me now, that maybe we need a certain "tabloidization" of film writing. I do not mean this in the negative connotation of yellow journalism, but more of a down to earth approach to film. To simplify - i love cars, but modern car journalism bores me to death. I can get all the facts from the internet. I adore, however, what Jeremy Clarkson has done to the genre. Maybe we need a Clarkson in the film writing world?<br /><br />I'd be interested to see what other people think about this. I hope nobody will find themselves insulted by anything i just wrote, i'm just curious as to what people may think. And this seems a good place to start.<br /><br />Oh, and more often than not, when people ask me who's your favorite director, i say Michael Bay. You should see the horror on peoples faces. But it makes for a fun discussion on exactly the difference between best and favorite.<br /><br />cheers from Amsterdam<br />Vuk<br /><br />P.S. i've probably said some things in here that i will regret even typing and are murderously wrong. but call me out on them, since the best way i learn is from my many mistakes.Vuk Radichttp://www.seeitwith.me/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-30586609681172141472010-02-13T16:20:37.352-05:002010-02-13T16:20:37.352-05:00J.D.: I look forward to reading your review of LO...J.D.: I look forward to reading your review of LOLA MONTES. I love that film exceedingly but one other Ophuls I do rank higher: THE EARRINGS OF MADAME DE, which came close to making either or both of the short-lists I posted on the previous comment. But I bet the Criterion blu-ray is to die for!Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-18500826992435069652010-02-13T16:18:03.282-05:002010-02-13T16:18:03.282-05:00To illustrate my own way of grappling with this of...To illustrate my own way of grappling with this oft-troubling differentiation I'll attempt to put together two lists containing my "favorite" dozen films of all-time and what I see to be the greatest films of all-time. There are some overlaps of course. Beither list is in any special numerical order:<br /><br />My 12 "Favorite" films of all-time:<br /><br />Sansho the Baliff<br />Au Hasard Balthasar<br />City Lights<br />West Side Story<br />The Last Picture Show<br />Citizen Kane<br />The Passion of Joan of Arc<br />Sunrise<br />Far From Heaven<br />Tokyo Story<br />The Grapes of Wrath<br />The Third Man<br /><br />The 12 'Greatest' Films of All-Time:<br /><br />Sunrise<br />The Passion of Joan of Arc<br />Sansho the Bailiff<br />Citizen Kane<br />Vertigo<br />City Lights<br />Le Regle de Jeu<br />M<br />Bicycle Thieves<br />Au Hasard Balthasar<br />Tokyo Story<br />Persona<br /><br />Of course I absolutely LOVE Persona, Bicycle Thieves, Le Regle de Jeu and vertigo, but if asked the question you posed here --best or greatest--my answers would be a bit different, and essentially it's the 'emotionally' connection you broach here.Sam Julianonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-48010257580850576232010-02-11T20:22:17.165-05:002010-02-11T20:22:17.165-05:00Tony: I just finished watching LOLA MONTES and was...Tony: I just finished watching LOLA MONTES and was blown away by it also. I don't know if it ranks up there in my top 10 but it definitely is one of those, "why haven't I seen it sooner?" films. Amazing! I would agree with your excellent review of the film and am not surprised at the negative reaction this film received back in the day. What a strange film it must've seemed back then - so ahead of its time. I really dug it's unconventional structure and insanely vibrant color scheme. Great stuff.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08164105442273577128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-7606361446587482052010-02-11T13:06:06.617-05:002010-02-11T13:06:06.617-05:00Well Stephen, artistic absolutism is not a philoso...Well Stephen, artistic absolutism is not a philosophy I subscribe to.<br /><br />Continuing with the FIRE WALK WITH ME analogy, it has enough flaws that annoy me to exclude it from my "best" list. Yet I'm always drawn into it wholeheartedly every time I watch it. So it is a favorite.<br /><br />Here's another analogy. There are people who I love to have a beer with. It doesn't necessarily follow that I admire them.<br /><br />A deeply flawed "favorite" film can inspire simply by sparking an idea of how one could have done it better. A near-perfect "best" film can actually distance you with its very genius. They can be two distinct things.<br /><br />But I'll grant you that for the most part, the two categories overlap fairly often.<br /><br />PS: The term "guilty pleasure" is just a lazy shorthand in my opinion. If I like a movie, I generally don't feel guilty about it. I think the term crops up when someone wants to avoid an argument, thinking that such a label will just head it off at the pass, so to speak.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-63910414569670965222010-02-11T12:38:01.664-05:002010-02-11T12:38:01.664-05:00I like Anton Chekhov's quote, whether he was b...I like Anton Chekhov's quote, whether he was being sincere or not:<br /><br />"I divide all works into two classes: those I like and those I don't. I have no other criterion."Stephenhttp://checkingonmysausages.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-4418453370643823652010-02-11T12:24:40.071-05:002010-02-11T12:24:40.071-05:00"I am of the opinion that "best" an..."I am of the opinion that "best" and "favorite" are two different animals. A movie which I label "best" is a film displaying artistic, intellectual, and technical virtuosity, yet it might not engage me on an emotional level."<br /><br />Tony, I do not make any distinction because I do not see 'favourite' as being something merely emotional. Surely favourite just means the one you get the most out of - and that could be in a multitude of ways from a multitude of quarters.<br /><br />For me my favourite films are the ones I consider the best and VICE VERSA. I'm glad of it because it makes things a hell of a lot easier.<br /><br />I hate the idea of being embarrassed or chided for your experiences, or having to have "guilty pleasures"<br /><br />Fire Walk With Me - that is a stunning film, so powerful. As I said at my place - sheer horror and staggering beauty without fetishising either. Someone left a great response at my review. He said that it does something rare and wonderful: turn us into the angels that vanish from the painting on her wall. <br /><br />A fascinating discussion.Stephenhttp://checkingonmysausages.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-61665746969249540072010-02-11T11:15:14.036-05:002010-02-11T11:15:14.036-05:00Tony, I do know Farber. But, I must admit, I have...Tony, I do know Farber. But, I must admit, I haven't read as much of his work as I'd like. That's interesting that he was arguing for some of these same things. I had no idea. <br /><br />I look forward to reading your future posts on Farber! And thanks for talking about this idea of "best" versus "favorite". I think it's one that is particularly important to me, as I had to empower myself at times to give value to my own personal responses. <br /><br />I thought this was a very interesting quote, too, over at "Wonders in the Dark" comments:<br /><br />"...At any rate, I find the “personal reaction is all that matters” approach to be severely limited. I think it’s central to the experience, and hope that it will always be a part of criticism – certainly there’s been a tendency in academic spheres to go too far in the other direction, and lose the sense of fun cinema is capable of evoking. But if that’s the risk the university runs, perhaps the blogosphere runs another risk: sacrificing the multiple ways of enjoying or appreciating a film to the dogma of one’s own “instincts.”Jeffrey Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06464544798603030406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-15929214247496539192010-02-11T10:58:36.223-05:002010-02-11T10:58:36.223-05:00Jeffrey, are you familiar with the critic Manny Fa...Jeffrey, are you familiar with the critic Manny Farber? This guy took down a lot of cinema's sacred cows intelligently, not simply trying to be a contrarian like Armond White.<br /><br />You can read my <a href="http://www.cinemaviewfinder.com/2009/12/book-review-farber-on-film-part-1-gimp.html" rel="nofollow">first post</a> of what will be a series looking at his complete writings. It addresses much of what we're discussing here.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-5685833736605873172010-02-11T10:21:53.359-05:002010-02-11T10:21:53.359-05:00I agree with all that you say here, Tony! I would...I agree with all that you say here, Tony! I would love to see though a move in film criticism towards making people, in general, feel more comfortable and "less bad" when they simply don't respond to a so-called "great film". To me, that wouldn't threaten film history as much as open it up for more people to participate and feel comfortable with their own personal responses (I'm not directing this at you at all, by the way. More just critics' tendencies, in general, as I've experienced them.) I feel like there's a group out there that's already moving in this direction, and I love seeing that. <br /><br />I recently heard Scorsese say about THE RULES OF THE GAME that it never did much for him, as it presented an upper class world that was completely foreign to him. He never disparaged the film, and his tone was even reverential. He simply had come to terms that because this film wasn't personal to him, it simply wasn't one of his favorites.<br /><br />To me, Scorsese's response was a great example for dealing with this issue.Jeffrey Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06464544798603030406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-10056376496348496622010-02-11T09:59:14.084-05:002010-02-11T09:59:14.084-05:00I would say that there are some films that one has...I would say that there are some films that one has to keep working at understanding. Kubrick is one director who many don't get for a long time, and whose films grow on subsequent viewings. I've seen CITIZEN KANE more times than I can remember and yet it's only now that I'm engaging with it wholeheartedly. Probably because I'm much older (more life under my belt), and probably because I'm not as distracted by all of the techniques I had to catalog for film theory courses in school, etc.<br /><br />But I would agree with the rest of your assessment. Some great movies will always leave you cold. I am a huge fan of David Lynch. I consider MULHOLLAND DRIVE and INLAND EMPIRE among his best movies, and the best of the decade. But like I said above, I'd always rather watch LOST HIGHWAY or even (God forbid) FIRE WALK WITH ME, a deeply flawed film which I love. So there you go.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-42341366031940687652010-02-11T09:40:41.471-05:002010-02-11T09:40:41.471-05:00Tony, I agree with this. Do you think then it'...Tony, I agree with this. Do you think then it's okay if upon revisiting, if it still leaves you cold, then you should accept it as a so-called "great film" that simply doesn't speak to you?<br /><br />I would also say that when a so-called "great film" doesn't affect you, that's okay. And, when that happens, which I would only imagine it would happen to all of us at some point, one should simply acknowledge that this is a highly revered film, but it just didn't have a great impact on them personally. <br /><br />All this to say (and it sounds like we totally agree on this), I think it's okay for someone's favorites to be completely different from an already established canon of what is great.Jeffrey Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06464544798603030406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-44535112422623159492010-02-11T09:27:38.285-05:002010-02-11T09:27:38.285-05:00I would also add that when you sees an obviously g...I would also add that when you sees an obviously great movie that leaves you cold you shouldn't write it off. You should reflect on it for a while and revisit it in the future.<br /><br />I'm not directing this at you, Jeffrey. Just continuing along the conversation you started.Tony Dayoubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04632329277519635858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8871549895931317151.post-43318231137881629022010-02-11T08:48:47.590-05:002010-02-11T08:48:47.590-05:00Tony, I like this distinction of "best" ...Tony, I like this distinction of "best" and "favorite", as well. And I think you define it as well as anywhere I've ever seen with this sentence:<br /><br />"A movie which I label "best" is a film displaying artistic, intellectual, and technical virtuosity, yet it might not engage me on an emotional level."<br /><br />I've always liked the distinction because at times I've chased after "classics" only to leave uninspired. Inversely, some of the movies that have impacted me most have been critically seen as inferior to some of these so-called best films. So for me it's useful. <br /><br />I also like the distinction because it validates personal taste, which at the end of the day I think is (if not more) as important as critically established taste. I think there should be a level of great importance placed on instinct and emotional response. Otherwise, we probably end up with a canon of purely cerebral films, and I think that's depriving us of one of the real joys of movies and their ability to entertain us.Jeffrey Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06464544798603030406noreply@blogger.com